Comments on: Songs of Innocence and Experience http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/ One Mormon boy’s iconoclastic quest to remix and rectify his notions of truth, mind, myth, love, life, and transcendence. Tue, 07 Oct 2008 05:50:31 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Jonathan Blake http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7500 Jonathan Blake Tue, 13 May 2008 21:53:50 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7500 <blockquote>what, it bothers you when 2-year-old girls are dressed in bikinis? why on earth would such a thing be offensive?</blockquote> Chandelle, are you being <a href="http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/02/27/irony-vs-sarcasm/">ironic</a> again? ;) Now that you mention it, I did stumble on a clumsy form of masturbation before I was ten years old. I noticed that if I ran a certain way all the right bits would get rubbed just the right way and it would feel <em>really</em> good. That was probably somewhere around seven or eight years old. We try to stick to real words for anatomy, too.

what, it bothers you when 2-year-old girls are dressed in bikinis? why on earth would such a thing be offensive?

Chandelle, are you being ironic again? ;)

Now that you mention it, I did stumble on a clumsy form of masturbation before I was ten years old. I noticed that if I ran a certain way all the right bits would get rubbed just the right way and it would feel really good. That was probably somewhere around seven or eight years old.

We try to stick to real words for anatomy, too.

]]> By: chandelle http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7497 chandelle Tue, 13 May 2008 20:53:03 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7497 what, it bothers you when 2-year-old girls are dressed in bikinis? why on earth would such a thing be offensive? this was an interesting post that got me thinking about my own childhood...and my children. show me yours was indeed a fond game in childhood. i also remember masturbating at...3? 4? clumsy, and silly, but children are intensely sensual creatures who seek pleasure. i found my dad's porn cache at 11 or 12 and invited my girlfriends over for a porn-fest. then we took off our clothes and compared development. it's not discussed much but the few times i've ventured to bring up these issues, they do seem to be pretty common experiences. children are sexual and they experiment with pleasure. they're also fascinated with their bodies and the bodies of others. it's normal. my children are 3 and 18 months. my son knows all the proper words for parts and he uses them freely. he plays with his penis whenever it's available and when i change my daughter, she touches her labia and clitoris. it's especially funny when she bends over to try to see what's down there. that makes me crack up every time. we just acknowledge it: "yep, that's your vulva, that's brother's penis, those are my breasts," etc. it doesn't need to be smothered or celebrated; it just is. i agree, raunch culture is a problem. i wonder how i'll raise my children with healthy attitudes about sexuality and acceptance of conservative experimentation against the culture that teaches certain things about men, women, bodies and sex. it's depressing to consider it. what, it bothers you when 2-year-old girls are dressed in bikinis? why on earth would such a thing be offensive?

this was an interesting post that got me thinking about my own childhood…and my children. show me yours was indeed a fond game in childhood. i also remember masturbating at…3? 4? clumsy, and silly, but children are intensely sensual creatures who seek pleasure. i found my dad’s porn cache at 11 or 12 and invited my girlfriends over for a porn-fest. then we took off our clothes and compared development. it’s not discussed much but the few times i’ve ventured to bring up these issues, they do seem to be pretty common experiences. children are sexual and they experiment with pleasure. they’re also fascinated with their bodies and the bodies of others. it’s normal. my children are 3 and 18 months. my son knows all the proper words for parts and he uses them freely. he plays with his penis whenever it’s available and when i change my daughter, she touches her labia and clitoris. it’s especially funny when she bends over to try to see what’s down there. that makes me crack up every time. we just acknowledge it: “yep, that’s your vulva, that’s brother’s penis, those are my breasts,” etc. it doesn’t need to be smothered or celebrated; it just is.

i agree, raunch culture is a problem. i wonder how i’ll raise my children with healthy attitudes about sexuality and acceptance of conservative experimentation against the culture that teaches certain things about men, women, bodies and sex. it’s depressing to consider it.

]]> By: Jonathan Blake http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7493 Jonathan Blake Tue, 13 May 2008 18:53:00 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7493 I was pretty ashamed of my own fantasies too. Actually, now that I think about it, I was ashamed of them until maybe two years ago. <i>shakes head</i> Regarding sexual clothing (sorry for the late reply, BTW), for example I mean dressing your first-grader in low-rise jeans or otherwise making them a sexual object <i>à la</i> JonBenét Ramsey. I was pretty ashamed of my own fantasies too. Actually, now that I think about it, I was ashamed of them until maybe two years ago.

shakes head

Regarding sexual clothing (sorry for the late reply, BTW), for example I mean dressing your first-grader in low-rise jeans or otherwise making them a sexual object à la JonBenét Ramsey.

]]> By: Lessie http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7481 Lessie Sun, 11 May 2008 05:10:29 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7481 Gosh, this post reminds me of my own sexual fantasies as young as five and six. I was hideously ashamed of them, and confessed to my mom (because that's what one does to repent, no?). And yet, they were still so exhilarating. I'm hoping to strike a balance with my own kids. On the dressing of children as adults, isn't that what we've been doing for decades (maybe even a century or two)? Maybe you could clarify for me. I did a couple of posts on my blog about clothes and child sexuality (the latter of which was re-posted on fMh). They are indeed difficult issues. Gosh, this post reminds me of my own sexual fantasies as young as five and six. I was hideously ashamed of them, and confessed to my mom (because that’s what one does to repent, no?). And yet, they were still so exhilarating. I’m hoping to strike a balance with my own kids.

On the dressing of children as adults, isn’t that what we’ve been doing for decades (maybe even a century or two)? Maybe you could clarify for me. I did a couple of posts on my blog about clothes and child sexuality (the latter of which was re-posted on fMh). They are indeed difficult issues.

]]> By: Seth R. http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7477 Seth R. Sat, 10 May 2008 03:01:46 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7477 Good point about the stress Jonathan. It's worth linking to the article one of the other commenters referenced that got me thinking about the topic: http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/ I will say, it's not a happy place our culture is going on this issue. I very firmly believe that. Whether you think the suppression approach of the LDS and others is healthy or not, it is not a happy place the porn culture is taking us. I'd also recommend the feminist book "Pornography and Silence." Rather chilling book. Good point about the stress Jonathan. It’s worth linking to the article one of the other commenters referenced that got me thinking about the topic:

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/

I will say, it’s not a happy place our culture is going on this issue. I very firmly believe that. Whether you think the suppression approach of the LDS and others is healthy or not, it is not a happy place the porn culture is taking us.

I’d also recommend the feminist book “Pornography and Silence.” Rather chilling book.

]]> By: Kullervo http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7476 Kullervo Sat, 10 May 2008 02:02:28 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7476 I really don't think that availability of porn is the reason that Japanese culture has a misogynistic bent. That's been around a lot longer than the nudie mags. I really don’t think that availability of porn is the reason that Japanese culture has a misogynistic bent. That’s been around a lot longer than the nudie mags.

]]> By: BEEHIVE http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7473 BEEHIVE Fri, 09 May 2008 16:25:08 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7473 Yes, I would agree that children are curious, but I do think that they should hold off their curiostiy until they are older. We have our entire adult lives for exploration. I also agree that encouraging by participating, or improper dressing can have a negative effect on children. Yes, I would agree that children are curious, but I do think that they should hold off their curiostiy until they are older. We have our entire adult lives for exploration. I also agree that encouraging by participating, or improper dressing can have a negative effect on children.

]]> By: Jonathan Blake http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7472 Jonathan Blake Fri, 09 May 2008 13:17:53 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7472 I believe you're remembering <a href="http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=1769#comment-393671">Seth R.'s comment at fMh</a>, though he didn't mention anything about prostitution. I think the forbiddenness of sex was a secret sauce that made it exciting. Perhaps Japanese culture was too open with it. Then again, perhaps we're seeing this from an American culture that is obsessed with sex which would make a less obsessed culture seem disinterested. Also, it seems like Japanese culture is very stressful. I know that when I'm stressed I'm less interested in sex. It's hard to know for sure what's at the root of this or if this is a valid judgment. I believe you’re remembering Seth R.’s comment at fMh, though he didn’t mention anything about prostitution. I think the forbiddenness of sex was a secret sauce that made it exciting. Perhaps Japanese culture was too open with it. Then again, perhaps we’re seeing this from an American culture that is obsessed with sex which would make a less obsessed culture seem disinterested.

Also, it seems like Japanese culture is very stressful. I know that when I’m stressed I’m less interested in sex.

It’s hard to know for sure what’s at the root of this or if this is a valid judgment.

]]> By: Lacey http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7469 Lacey Fri, 09 May 2008 05:18:06 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7469 I don't remember where the conversation or it was in a blog I read about Japan or China, where there is a lot of porn everywhere and no one cares to cover it up. Like men will look at porn on the subway with woman and children standing around. Prostitution is everywhere and you can get it with someone of any age. Anyways it was a thought that the young men in that society didn't give any respect to woman and were often cold and harsh, or something to the like. So the young woman were frustrated by them and often hit on the American missionaries, because they were respectful to woman. I guess the point was having such a sexual society had made the men less attractive to real woman, and less respectful. I really wish I could remember where I heard or read this. I don't think it was a figment of my imagination anyways. I don’t remember where the conversation or it was in a blog I read about Japan or China, where there is a lot of porn everywhere and no one cares to cover it up. Like men will look at porn on the subway with woman and children standing around. Prostitution is everywhere and you can get it with someone of any age. Anyways it was a thought that the young men in that society didn’t give any respect to woman and were often cold and harsh, or something to the like. So the young woman were frustrated by them and often hit on the American missionaries, because they were respectful to woman.
I guess the point was having such a sexual society had made the men less attractive to real woman, and less respectful.

I really wish I could remember where I heard or read this. I don’t think it was a figment of my imagination anyways.

]]> By: Jonathan Blake http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7466 Jonathan Blake Fri, 09 May 2008 00:13:11 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/05/08/songs-of-innocence-and-experience/#comment-7466 I must add that I think this exploration was OK because we were all children. I'm not OK with the idea of adults actively participating in these explorations (otherwise known as sexual molestation). I also don't think it's OK for adults to dress their little girls in adult-style clothing. It sounds like I'm a little conflicted. I must add that I think this exploration was OK because we were all children. I’m not OK with the idea of adults actively participating in these explorations (otherwise known as sexual molestation). I also don’t think it’s OK for adults to dress their little girls in adult-style clothing.

It sounds like I’m a little conflicted.

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