Comments on: Out of the Clear Blue http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/ One Mormon boy’s iconoclastic quest to remix and rectify his notions of truth, mind, myth, love, life, and transcendence. Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:53:22 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Kullervo http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/#comment-6299 Kullervo Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:27:44 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/#comment-6299 The nature of epistemology means there is a level of doubt in everything. You can't know anything for certain, including seemingly solid empirical data. It's all filtered through the double-filter of pohysical sensation and mental perception anyway, and there's no particular reason other than the practical need to exist to think that what you think you are experiencing ears even a passing resemblance to what is objectively happening. We could be in the Matrix for all we know. Personally, I'd settle for a far less convincing display. A reasonably impressive mystical experience of any kind (and not the low-bar warm fuzzy of Mormonism) would probably be enough for me to believe. On the other hand, I don't really mean that it would be enough to objectively convince me that such a being existed. But it would be practically enough to spur me to self-conscious religious expression and subjective belief. The nature of epistemology means there is a level of doubt in everything. You can’t know anything for certain, including seemingly solid empirical data. It’s all filtered through the double-filter of pohysical sensation and mental perception anyway, and there’s no particular reason other than the practical need to exist to think that what you think you are experiencing ears even a passing resemblance to what is objectively happening. We could be in the Matrix for all we know.

Personally, I’d settle for a far less convincing display. A reasonably impressive mystical experience of any kind (and not the low-bar warm fuzzy of Mormonism) would probably be enough for me to believe. On the other hand, I don’t really mean that it would be enough to objectively convince me that such a being existed. But it would be practically enough to spur me to self-conscious religious expression and subjective belief.

]]> By: Lincoln Cannon http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/#comment-6298 Lincoln Cannon Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:42:17 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/#comment-6298 . . . option four: God does care and expects you to be arational -- faith, which is to discover and join God to the extent she already exists, and to create and become God to the extent she does not yet. This empowers you. . . . option four: God does care and expects you to be arational — faith, which is to discover and join God to the extent she already exists, and to create and become God to the extent she does not yet. This empowers you.

]]> By: Jonathan Blake http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/#comment-6293 Jonathan Blake Wed, 23 Jan 2008 20:26:56 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/#comment-6293 Anna, I've learned (only recently to my discredit) that part of critical thinking is always coming up with alternate hypotheses to explain something. The example I gave—I meant for the person to descend from a stratospheric altitude, by the way, to make an illusionist's trick unlikely—could be explained by a manifestation of God, or as you suggest it could just be a very talented magician and a very handy coincidence. Or perhaps it could be an alien capitalizing on human religious traditions. In this case, I think the first would be most likely hypothesis. I would probably also accept less dramatic evidence like the spontaneous regeneration of a major limb by people who were prayed for. (Did you know that <a href="http://library.thinkquest.org/C0110311/regeneration.shtml">children under the age of eleven can regenerate their fingertips</a>?) John, I too doubt that anyone could present conclusive evidence that they are God, but if someone moves a mountain and then demands worship, I agree that the prudent course would be to comply. ;) Anna,

I’ve learned (only recently to my discredit) that part of critical thinking is always coming up with alternate hypotheses to explain something. The example I gave—I meant for the person to descend from a stratospheric altitude, by the way, to make an illusionist’s trick unlikely—could be explained by a manifestation of God, or as you suggest it could just be a very talented magician and a very handy coincidence. Or perhaps it could be an alien capitalizing on human religious traditions. In this case, I think the first would be most likely hypothesis.

I would probably also accept less dramatic evidence like the spontaneous regeneration of a major limb by people who were prayed for. (Did you know that children under the age of eleven can regenerate their fingertips?)

John,

I too doubt that anyone could present conclusive evidence that they are God, but if someone moves a mountain and then demands worship, I agree that the prudent course would be to comply. ;)

]]> By: John Remy http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/#comment-6290 John Remy Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:40:22 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/#comment-6290 I've thought a lot about this same scenario, and I think all that they could prove to me is that they were god-like, but not necessarily God in the all-power, all-knowing, universe-creating Western monotheistic sense. That said, God-like might be enough--when you're an ant, it doesn't really matter if it's an elephant or a human-piloted tank, they can both crush you. I’ve thought a lot about this same scenario, and I think all that they could prove to me is that they were god-like, but not necessarily God in the all-power, all-knowing, universe-creating Western monotheistic sense. That said, God-like might be enough–when you’re an ant, it doesn’t really matter if it’s an elephant or a human-piloted tank, they can both crush you.

]]> By: Anna http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/#comment-6288 Anna Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:28:56 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/#comment-6288 You'd doubt even if you saw something with your own eyes and a few of your friends saw it too? Also, magicians can produce things like people floating, hovering, etc. and there is no conceivable flying apparatus. As for the mountain moving, you didn't say that a volcano couldn't errupt coincidentally with the appearance of this person. Or a lava dome collapse. Or an earthquake. Or a sink hole. You’d doubt even if you saw something with your own eyes and a few of your friends saw it too?

Also, magicians can produce things like people floating, hovering, etc. and there is no conceivable flying apparatus.

As for the mountain moving, you didn’t say that a volcano couldn’t errupt coincidentally with the appearance of this person. Or a lava dome collapse. Or an earthquake. Or a sink hole.

]]> By: Jonathan Blake http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/#comment-6285 Jonathan Blake Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:17:04 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/#comment-6285 A very valid question. I figure if someone can manage to do the things mentioned (things which are beyond any conceivably advanced human technology available today), then they've got better things to do than to play a practical joke on me. There would always be some level of doubt (especially if they started asking for donations), but such an experience would go a long way to making me a believer. A very valid question. I figure if someone can manage to do the things mentioned (things which are beyond any conceivably advanced human technology available today), then they’ve got better things to do than to play a practical joke on me. There would always be some level of doubt (especially if they started asking for donations), but such an experience would go a long way to making me a believer.

]]> By: Anna http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/#comment-6283 Anna Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:10:23 +0000 http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2008/01/23/out-of-the-clear-blue/#comment-6283 Why would you believe they are who they say they are? What proof would exist to say that they are who they say are? Why would you believe they are who they say they are?

What proof would exist to say that they are who they say are?

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